The Defender of Eales
Or
How Not to Debate
(if you don't want to look like an idiot)
By
Paul Joseph Rovelli
I was in a rather mischievous mood one day last year. And I wrote this commentary to a document by Ray Eales describing the supposed relationship between a Master of the A.'.A.'. and his or her Disciple. To further my mood, I mailed it out to some former friends whom decided that they were no longer my friend for one sole reason…I left the cult that they still belong to. Of course, I learned that they weren't really friends to begin with (if I have to be in HOOR or their lineage of the A.'.A.'. to qualify for this now dubious distinction…it's definitely not wholesome). And from there…David Stein (at the time, Master of A/OM Lodge)…decided to reply. Naturally, I saved his emails and our conversation. I present it here, transcribed to show what could really go wrong when one buys the argument that a Master should have complete control over the development of a Disciple. Giving up one's autonomy over one's own Initiation is just plain idiotic. Look and see!
Please also note that at one time and for a number of years, David Stein was a close and trusted friend of mine. Really, I miss his friendship and those others that were a part of an organization here in New Jersey that worked very hard and was marvelously productive. We had a lot of very good times together and we held the utmost respect for each other. I remember David from back in the Caliphate days when he would call me almost every night; asking me questions about Crowley and about Magick. We left the Caliphate at the same time as he recognized the unjust position they took in the handling of another unrelated matter. Only this time, things for some reason were decidedly different. But that's a whole other story.
I'm writing this approximately seven months after the initial conversation took place. The conversation took place in August of 2000ev. Any comments in bold type are being written in April of 2001ev and are for the purposes of elucidating an important argument: Debate is about finding the truth and not about winning. Being able to hold a range of facts in one's head and accurately respond to them is of the utmost importance. Too many people especially in Thelema today, don't really have a good understanding of this. And I hope that the reader finds this edifying on this level as well.
Our conversation begins with Mr. Stein's email to me. And I believe that Mr. Eales was feeding him lines as some of his words definitely don't sound like they came from him. I knew David well enough, his intellectual capacities and his speech patterns as well as a lot of the things about Thelema that were particularly absorbed by his intellect. And some of what's being said is in my opinion, definitely not his.
CF;
93
It seems you're missing the point with Ray's article.
The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.
Obviously, H.O.O.R. is the Organ of the A.'.A.'., specifically 939.'.'s branch of the A.'.A.'.
And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve? Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.
I have found in dealing with Ray that if you have an attitude that is 'cult-worship-like' with him, he will most certainly encourage you to worship him and what he believes/mandates/whatever. You said it once yourself... "He'll give you enough rope to hang yourself."
You do the same thing Paul. I've worked with you for a number of years. I've seen your dictator like ways and manipulative personality. It has served me well in hardening my shell and making me stronger for combat with my own Self and others.
If anything, the warrior requires some type of battle experience to be better equipped for the war.
Many 'warriors in training' get killed in boot camp though...
The truth is, you are both leaders of the masses. They will follow you because your voices are heard well by your educated minds and life-experiences.
The same is true for Marc, Josh, Dominick and others.
With such apparently ego minded people, one is compelled to follow them for a time. This happens until one reaches the point of rising up and claiming their own right and place, if in fact it ever happens.
If they fail, then they will fall to the point of complacency and the continuance of such hero-worship, to the betterment of the Order and the M.T. (ie. the slaves shall serve...)
Crowley was a classic example of someone using this technique to either 'shock' the Aspirant into thinking for him/herself if they were capable of such feats (so uncommon in humans...the few and the secret...), or if not, to continue to feed the slave-like tendencies of the individual thereby forever entrapping them.
The 'double-speak' you point out so often in Ray's essay attempts to show this, but you do not see it.
Perhaps this is because you have already gone through this process.
You have already become the 'Mentor'.. the 'Instructor'...
Whether you like it or not, you have. Those who are around you or near you often latch onto your teacher-like personality. I did myself for a long time.
It was this enslavement that forced me to look into myself. I was no longer complacent, but had a friend... an ally in my battle with myself. That ally didn't help me by giving me a pat on the back and saying 'good job Dave!' No... Instead he fought me every step of the way...assuming *HIS* ideas were the correct ones. You sought to manipulate me and get me to worship you and your ideals so that I could better understand my 'Self' (as you believed my 'Self' to be.)
Obviously I've disappointed you, but that's the way it goes I guess.
Did you notice that we're standing in a room full of mirrors?
93 93/93
Fraternally,
1/3
DMS
Then I sent this reply:
cf
You:
Me:
I don't think so...you see...I refused to be enslaved and I refuse to accept some idea of being a failure BECAUSE I left the herd of cattle known as HOOR (a company of slaves).
And you would accept this slavery for the sake of your higher Aspiration?! That's all but laughable.
I don't believe that anyone who pushes forth policies of enslavement for whatever reason could make anything an Organ of the A.'.A.'. if one considers the goals of the A.'.A.'. Life, Light, Love & LIBERTY (opposite of enslavement).
YES! Not yours nor anyone else's...just his...el Presidente...the CONSOLER.
But of course! And he has a lot of them gathered around him to support and exalt him. Instead of teaching them to find their own freedom, he allows them to continue in their unabashed folly...for his own ends...self-serving and aggrandizing of course...just like a good cult leader. It doesn't matter that you quote me out of context to support your point. You didn't need that abuse of my words to help you. You have already been quite clear.
This is ad hominem…very immature…and ruins any chance at a substantive debate. But I do try to get around it.
Nice try at a rationalization. You would even try to put me on the defensive here...not biting today...try again tomorrow.
The enemy is within oneself...the Master need not add to this with further attacks from outside. That is only a distraction to take time and energy away from working on oneself.
Yes...in the boot camp of the Consoler who claims the right to judge the living and the dead...(Christist).
Thanks for you kind words...but I don't seek any glory by way of 'the masses'...nor am I their shepherd...(Christist).
They are Cattle amongst the herd...thus spoke Zarathustra! LOL
This was a bit of an inside joke as Marc's motto is Zarathustra.
Both me & Ray with egos?! I thought Ray had destroyed his ego...so did Lynn Cerrito when she made her bold announcement of the same accomplishment. That should leave only me with any sense of self-identity (ego)...ROFL!
Lynn Cerrito is a close confidante and student of Ray's. She used to run his HOOR Lodge in Tampa.
Yes, more dues paying idle-minded masses to gather into the fold...go Jesus! And you just keep converting them to this imbecilic state with such teachings as In the Continuum.
Article posted in the files section of this list.
Now that's laughably un-supported...show documentation. This is some sort of fairy tale you're weaving here. I understand your attempt at a 'Trickster' motif...but you're on rationally shaky ground in this case. But of course...In the Continuum teaches us that to be rational is to fail the ordeal of your advancement...so you don't need to be rational...silly me.
This is of course, accusatory and serves no purpose in a debate. It only serves the debator when there's no real substance in the argument that he can come up with. The idea is to divert the attention into a tangent argument…and it takes a way from any chance to learn.
Now that's your silliest rationalization.
If it was true that this was even recognized, the Master would be celebrating my 'graduation' and 'passing of the test'...rather than running around telling people in his flock that I'm insane and a failed Neophyte. You unfortunately have deluded yourself nicely with these most irrational rationalizations. But thanks for the kind words towards me.
I kind of indulged him here a bit…but we did get the conversation back on track…sort of. Still, he's indirectly using ad hominem…and yet, describing not only how he sees things…but indirectly defending Ray's position. But what's more interesting here is that he's not arguing objectively, but arguing totally from a subjective viewpoint...and not even aware of it. Emotionalism is not only defeating in a debate…but it crosses two planes…one should not think with the emotions and feel with the intellect.
So now you reveal some of your paranoias...I never sought to enslave you...that is only your perception...and obviously one that you enjoyed...something you're still enjoying...with the CONSOLER.
And this is a strong point…he's using the Master to fortify his egoic situation…really proving to the objective reader that the Master can't help you in this regard…despite Ray's claims.
This is a real distraction…and a bit of a play on passive aggressive behavior. I do try to get around it and back to the discussion. But he's more and more bringing the focus to himself and betraying his own psyche than defending Ray, which was his original intent.
No...you didn't disappoint me...I stopped being the CONSOLER you wanted...so you took on another task master (from your point of view). Actually, you realized that I wasn't consoling you at all...and you ran like hell to Daddy.
But of course! That's all the fun of this...thanks for playing the game...and so well!!!
Now this was truly great…I was reflecting these messages to a few interested parties…and David was sending them to Ray. You'll see later how having the same thing done to him proved to be upsetting for him. And he really seemed to believe that somehow I was going to cower when I learned that Ray was reading this.
93/93
pj
Now the conversation develops. We move into the second level of exchange.
>> Me:
>> I don't think so...you see...I refused to be enslaved and I
>> refuse to accept
>> some idea of being a failure BECAUSE I left the herd of cattle
>> known as HOOR
>> (a company of slaves).
Me to David:
Interesting that you have no response for this.
And I am not only goading him…but claiming my point.
>> You:
>> The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave
>> the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.
>>
>> And you would accept this slavery for the sake of your higher
>> Aspiration?!
>> That's all but laughable.
Your response:
Your interpretation of this concept of slavery and mine are obviously different. In fact, I think they always have been.
My counterpoint:
Yes...I use the dictionary...and we wouldn't want anyone in HOOR to be that rational now would we...it would prove they have an ego...and that would bring humiliation in front of all the other members of this cult. After all...Ray's the only one allowed to have one of those.
You continued response:
Just because the teacher puts you through ordeals does not mean that the teacher is seeking to destroy you. In reality, you are putting yourself through the ordeals, the teacher is only acting as a catalyst. You are missing this key point.
Now we have sheer logical fallacy developing. It's ok to seek the use of terminology for the sake of understanding as in identifying a different definition of slavery. If on the one hand the "teacher puts your through ordeals", it can't follow that "the teacher is only acting as a catalyst". The importance in logical argumentation is the most important factor in any debate. Without this, there is no chance at producing a rational argument. And the whole debate degenerates into a maelstrom of sophistry.
My continued counterpoint:
I'm not missing the key point...the teacher doesn't want to destroy you...just humiliate and badger you till you get with the program and start selling flowers in airports...in other words...doing his will and not their own.
>> I don't believe that anyone who pushes forth policies of enslavement for
>> whatever reason could make anything an Organ of the A.'.A.'. if one
>> considers the goals of the A.'.A.'. Life, Light, Love & LIBERTY
>> (opposite of
>> enslavement).
You are missing my point entirely and claiming something I never said.
I quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" [with Ray as grand puba] are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'."
Your continued response:
I never claimed H.O.O.R. or the A.'.A.'. pushed forth policies of enslavement. I'm not a representative of either of those entities.
This disclaimer is a weak-kneed attempt to excuse a faulty argument. David has already claimed to be Ray's student and by defending Ray…he's acting as a representative of the A.'.A.'.. And of course Ray is also Overseer of HOOR of which David is not only an Initiate…but their webmaster for their official site as well. All in all, this is but a diversionary tactic that destroys any chance at actually addressing the issue at hand and forming reasonable arguments for the sake of arriving at the truth. David needs to win…and where he finds himself losing, he resorts to sophistry and like tactics.
My repeated counterpoint:
You never claimed HOOR or the AA pushed forth policies of enslavement?! I again quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'." No...you couldn't possibly be an 'official' representative of HOOR...you're only their Webmaster. Don't represent them...just keep speaking for them as a member...that's good enough for these glass walls.
What I meant is that by default, if the Student should fail to get past hero-worship of the teacher, they will fail miserably and become enslaved.
How about...the master should immediately point out the absurdity of hero worship and discourage it at every turn so that the Student may begin to focus on him or herself? Nah...that wouldn't do at all...who'd worship the master then? Drop kick me Jesus...through the field goals of life.
>> And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve?
>> Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.
>> YES! Not yours nor anyone else's...just his...el
>> Presidente...the CONSOLER.
Well? Isn't there a lot more to consider? Consider how you for so long sought to have a 'Thelemic community'. Who's purpose did it serve? Don't tell me it was some noble Thelemic cause of yours to save the world from the evils of christism, because I won't believe it.
Again, a diversionary tactic…and indirectly ad hominem.
I am not out to save the world...that's just you living in this paradigm that requires a consoler (Christist conditioning at work here). BTW: I'm using Motta's definition of a 'Consoler'...one who says that "Only through me can you get to the Father"...wouldn't want you running to a dictionary now...that would just ruin your initiation now...wouldn't it? I remember when the Catholic Church used to warn me that I was getting too well educated and was in danger of losing my faith...ROFL.
I still would like to be a part of a Thelemic community...one that promotes Life, Love, Liberty & Light. What healthy Thelemite wouldn't prefer that to a Christist community?
But you do reveal yourself well here...you couldn't for a moment think that I might be philanthropic enough to want to share any bounty obtained from my hard work with other people...if but for the love of those in my life. This is telling of your own social alienation.
>> You...
aneczka9482